Adam Lyons PUA on Value
An explanation of value with a hint of outcome independence.
So I’ve spent the last few weeks in some interesting conversations with some guys on the essence of value. After a particularly insightful conversation last night I think I’ve come up with a few theories I thought I’d share.
Since starting the game I’ve never really had AA, I just don’t suffer from it. My desire to succeed outweighed my fear of rejection. Until talking yesterday I never really understood just how valuable this was.
As far as we understand alot of attraction is based on value.
We all want what we can’t obtain, we seek girls with higher value. A hotter girl isn’t as attractive if she’s slept with everyone as her market value decreases, unless we are lower value than her, i.e. struggle with girls, feel the need to validate ourselves by sleeping with her based on her looks alone etc.
This value however isn’t a measure of our physical or financial worth. Being rich doesn’t Automatically make you high value.
If you have a posh car and you show it to everyone you meet you’re actively seeking validation from them, therefore you don’t feel higher value, you’re seeking confirmation of your value from others, ergo you don’t recognise that you have value. If you don’t see it, then why would anyone else?
So real Value is portrayed, in our body language, in the way we speak, hell in everything you do.
You could be working in Macdonalds, yet portray incredibly high value.
eg
HB: What do you do for a living?
Maccy D Dude: I could tell you, but I don’t think you’lld understand.
HB: What do you mean?
Maccy D Dude: Well I think you may make a judgement without fully understanding the situation.
HB: I dont understand, tell me.
Maccy D Dude: Ok, I work at Macdonalds, but you need to understand why, I work here because I had a very poor upbringing and whilst here I can get aid in a catering qualification, which I plan on using to get myself work in a kitchen at a bar, with only a few years working there I hope to get my way up to being a head chef and eventually completeing all the qualifications necessary to be able to open up my own restaurant serving delicacies I like to invent in my spare time.
Now as you can tell despite the fact he currently has a job that isn’t particularly impressive he is able to convey value by having a clear ambition, he also doesn’t degrade his job, or hide it. In fact he sort of qualifies the girl before telling her what he does to get her to actually view the situation without preconceived notions (well as many as possible)
So value is capable of being translated via communication, or to be more to the point Sub-communication.
However how does this help us with regards to game aside form the obvious attraction building? More importantly how can we actually portray this value?
One of the key factors is actually outcome independence. Something I’m beginning to realise is fundamental to Value.
In any given situation, the value of that situation can be viewed differently by any two people.
E.g if a random AFC is in a conversation with an HB the value could be represented as being
Conversation value to AFC = High
Conversation Value to HB= Low
So the AFC would be needing the conversation more than her, if someone where to come and interupt to take The HB to an interview for a new modelling job then after a few moments she may forget that conversation completely, whereas the AFC would remember it for a good while to come.
Now, lets look at the situation again but add numerical values to the value.
AFC = 20
HB = 1
He is 20 times more invested in the conversation than she is.
No imagine someone who is COMPLETELY outcome independent going into the same situation.
MR Outcome Independent Conversation value = 0
HB = 1
Now even though she may only give the conversation a value of 1 it is still significantly higher than his.
Therefore she is alot more invested than he is by default! The situation means more to her than him, and therefore she has more to lose. When she sense this loss she will begin to invest in the situation to try and ensure she doesn’t lose any value. i.e the value of the conversation to her.
This investment increases her buy in to the conversation.
This Increases the value of the conversation to her.
MR Outcome Independent Conversation value = 0
HB = 2
The more she invests, the more she feels a need to maintain the situation, the more she becomes attracted to it.
Now obviously I’ve given the HB a value of 1 because If I gave her a value of 0 both parties would walk away without anything. However, when you take into account how often people actually seek validation you begin to realise that they usually do give some form of value to Absolutely any given situation. It’s just that normally it’s alot less than an AFC.
Why does negging work?
It works because it shows the girl that you haven’t given her any value, on that specific situation and she Bites back because she has given it at least some form of value.
Now obviously being completely outcome independent is easier said than done, however maybe it’ll give you something to focus on. When I first started in the game my desire to succeed outweighed my AA consequently I opened everything not with the aim of getting the girl but with the aim of learning what WOULDN’T work. Therefore I was outcome independent. I am beginning to understand just how much this was a key area of my own development.
Anyway guys just a few random ramblings,
I hope you enjoy.
AFC Adam
Surely though, the fact that he has to make an excuse for why he works there means that he’s lower value..? He could just add the rest on of what you said later when he gets her to ask him about his ambitions (non-directly obviously) which might sound a bit better..? xoxo
I actually agree with Matthew, i mean, you made your point however, it seems to me that the guy was needy, if he were confident enough he wouldn´t care about what the Hb thinks about his job, after all he have a plan for that, and he could have slip it on later, later on the post i really agree, specially on the part “why the negs work” you´ll see, when i started with this stuff of pick up girls, i didn´t really know about the existance of “the game” or the comunity but i have this friends, all naturals, and i was pertty impressed watching how they picked up 3,4,5 girls by what i thout at the time was insulting them, later i knew that was a neg and calibrate it and now i use them pretty often, anyway, i started to buy all kinds of “pick up” books, that were actually an insult, and wroted by guys that i couldn´t call other than AFC´s, so those didn´t work for me, some years later i recived an electronic newsletter of a well known pick up artist, by mistake, however i didn´t cancelled the newsletter and started reading about negs and stuff, and i was like “mmm im gonna try it why not” and since the examples there talked about HBs 9 or 10´s i decided to go for it with the hottest girl in my acting class, actually she was a dancer but was in the same academy… WORKED LIKE A CHARM!!! she was eating from the palm of my hand, and i must say that at the time i have a pretty lame game, so, i seem that worked and keep using it, i was basing my game on negs, worked and she didn´t even know why, neither as I, now i have a lot clearer idea, and is because i have read a lot of threads like this one, keep with this type of things man, they helps me a lot to develop the kind of game i want!
POKER
Value is an interesting topic and probably a very misunderstood one. I think that Adam has hit on something when he talks about investing in a conversation — if a woman invests more in a conversation she is more likely to remember it. However, I think there is an important point missing from the general discussion: environmental value. The environment that we are in can detract from our value and this can be a challenging concept to deal with. For example, if we return to Adam’s scenario we can imagine an AFC working in McDonalds; however, as has already been mentioned, when he tries to qualify himself he sounds ‘needy’ or ‘over the top’. His value is already lessened because of his environment. Imagine the conversation that Adam stated in a club setting; perhaps the AFC is talking to a girl and he tells her that he works in McDonalds and that he intends to go to culinary school, in this environment it seems normal! Environment is a huge factor when talking about value guys, don’t forget this.
As Adam states, outcome independence is almost parasitically attached to value, ensure that the environment you are in maximizes your value and you will find that your success dramatically increases. If you are more academic and have trouble talking to women in a club setting, try a university campus coffee shop. Be outcome independent; however, maximize your chances of a positive outcome by ensuring you are comfortable in your environment. I think we can add a point there: AFC = 0 HB = 2. Have fun guys!
But surely by just being there, in a conversation, you are invested in it and adding value…? If anyone was truly a zero, they would probably be turned away from the other speaker, not listening and just scanning the area for somewhere better to go. It seems to me that anyone with any sense then would just leave, having got the message that they’re not wanted.
So we must naturally be invested in the conversation at least a small bit… so where do we make the balance?
Typing that question I realise its probably not something you can get in words, but just something you can get a feel for in practice I suppose.
Anyway, thanks for the advice, will definitely be thinking about value next time I go out!
This a quality article!!
Outcome independence is a thing I would love to have and am working towards! I would like to say something though, an opinion.
Previous posts here have mentioned this guy working in macdonalds and his response of why he works there is “needy”. I gotta say, I disagree.
I believe that talking about your dreams and goals in life is an attractive quality. It shows your ambitous, and that you value yourself as a person as your striving for greatness. I would not say its needy, if anything its congruent and exciting. Talking about your dreams and goals will elicit emotions from a girl, and help build a deeper connection which is needed in pick up. You can then go on and talk about her dreams and see if she is as ambitous as you etc. In fact, its not needy, its gold!
He is showing value in himself, if the girl likes this,game on. If not, hes outcome independent, so what! lol
Cheers Guys, Noel
The article’s mostly spot on, but it’s worth adding that UNDERSTANDING what value is, is not the same as HAVING that value.
A virgin will shoot himself in the foot because he sees a woman, any woman, as being able to provide something that he desperately craves. He’ll come across as needy, and low value, and will probably ruin his own chances as a result.
Now he might well understand the principles behind what’s going on here, and yet still have the same problem. He’ll recognize that it’s happening because he’s so needy and his value is lowered, but recognizing a problem is only the first step towards getting a change.
So the solution is to actually CREATE value for yourself. You’ve got to ask yourself: how can I reach a level where I’m so confident in myself, where I feel myself being of such high value, that I just don’t give a shit anymore?
Part of this is external – actually going out and doing things with your life. Not just in the realm of getting girls, but in your job, your hobbies, your social life – build up yourself in every area so that you become a somebody, and not a nobody. Another part is internal – don’t just do things, but change your perception of them. If you were a failure in school or failed your degree at university, stop focusing on that and evaluate yourself based on your successes, not your failures.
Understanding value is a good thing, but attaining that value has to be your real goal.
I can understand Gabriel’s comment above, but I think part of what Adam was getting at was don’t invest in the importance of the conversation, i.e. be involved in the conversation and offer good material to it but be able to translate that YOU are the prize.
The point of a conversation in this context (in terms of social dynamics) is for two people to prove to eachother that they are high value people (put very simply). At some point in the conversation, sometimes immediately, one of the two people will realise that he/she is higher value than the other and will lose interest in the conversation. When this happens, the other person will pickup on this and try and give him/herself more value to equalise the other person, and by doing this (i.e. qualifying themselves) they are actaully losing more value.
Obviously if a typical AFC found himself chatting to a cute girl, he would put so much importance on the conversation and what it could lead to.
A guy with social skills, like the ones we’re all developing, will be involved and contribute to the conversation, but he can non-verbally translate to the girl that he wouldn’t be bothered if he lost her, i.e. he is the prize.
Adam’s spot on with the negs and why they work, because hot girls are used to guys coming up to them and praising them, but when a different guy comes up and isn’t so bothered about pleasing her and is playful (through negging) and demonstrates high value- then of course shes going to be interested in him. Well, those are my two-cents anyway.
Noel, I’m completely with you on this one.
I don’t think value has anything to do with what you say. Value, like charity, starts at home. If you believe in the reality you are moving towards, and if that reality is way higher than getting laid, but actually would contribute for a better world for you, the people around you, and the planet, then no one can challenge this.
If picking up the girl you’re talking to is part of this grander plan, then it becomes an unchallengeable intention.
So why not say “I work in McDonalds”, let her test you. Encourage it.
HB- McDonalds?.. oh.
You (smiling, joking): “Is that OK with you sweety?”
HB- Yes
You (still clearly joking): You just seemed a little prejudice, thats all. I guess I thought you were cool…”
HB- You don’t work in McDonalds!
You: Well you can believe what you like darling…
If deep inside, McDonalds is the right thing for you right now, and its going to the right place for everyone, she can not question that, it is the pure essence of value- you are fullfilling your value to the universe.
Great post as always Adam
Adam, I think your attitude of not caring about being blown out, so long as you learn something new is a v.positive way of framing an interaction. In fact, using this frame helps to reduce my approach anxiety, since if I get blown out I’m happy because I learnt something new. I can go into the next set with more confidence knowing I’m a step closer to becoming a master PUA. As oppose to the AFC that gets blown out and says I’m useless, whats the point and gives up.
Also I like the way you say your desire to succeed outweighed your approach anxiety. So to give us more chance of destroying our approach anxiety we must increase our desire to succeed. I believe meditation followed by visualisation of complete success with women will increase this desire. Meditation will help you to clear your mind and increase concentration, so any thoughts you have in visualisation will be stronger, and you will attach much more emotion to them. Strengthening desire.
Phillip, you know? i think that your comment have a lot of sence, is great that you use this mind set to reduce your approach anxiety, i did too,and i still do of course, i still feel kinda anxious when i see a really really hot babe, and i try to think “fuck of, im just gonna go there, i don´t care what she thinks, i don´t even know her yet, and probably she´s gonna think im amazing” or something in that tenor, i was on a trip a couple days ago and all the way on my driving home i was thinking about it you know? i was like “i wanna be a great pua, even a Mpug, why not? so i don´t care if i gotta be blown out 300 times, that only means that im gonna get laid other 1000 times lol” so i think my desire to succeed went sky rocket high, actually reading this kinda post helps me a lot with that.
POKER